If a behavior or even a desire for a behavior is an instinct then it is by definition not "learned".
Just because a behavior has to be practiced for proficiency doesn't mean its a "learned" behavior. Human infants don't "learn" how to walk, they just get up and do it after a certain amount of time. No one really "learns" how to have sex, they just do it at some point after becoming an adult, etc.
The comparison to Language doesn't work either. Particular languages are learned but the ability to create and speak languages is itself innate. Also, distinct Languages, Dialects and even Accents reflect the nature of the people who created them.
This might just boil down to a semantic debate. If instinctive behaviors are defined as behaviors favored by natural selection, then learning is often part of the installation process for such behaviors.
I’d personally say that practicing for proficiency is learning, as it likely involves the same sort of mechanisms as other forms of learning - e.g., reinforcement learning.
Hi Steve. Watching the little gorilla it seemed to me that there were two factors displayed: 1) the desire/need/urge (!?) to perform the chest thumping and b) the physical competence required. Developing the second factor is something that all complex animals undergo: human infants require practice reliably to locate their thumb in relation to their mouth. But does the desire/need/urge need to be learned?
Hi Simon. As a first approximation, I think it'd be fair to say that, while the behavior is learned, the desire to perform it isn't. Thus, instinctive behaviors are learned in response to unlearned instinctive desires.
It's possible, though, that if we could put a microscope to the neural underpinnings of the desire, we'd find that things aren't quite so tidy. The initial desire could be quite vague and inchoate, and could itself be honed as the behavior starts to develop. In other words, the desire and the behavior may develop in concert with one another.
Logically, though, there must be some unlearned starting point, or the whole process could never get off the ground.
Yes, I came to the comments to say exactly the same thing. The instinct is innate and driven by biology, but competence can only be learned by repeated practice. Presumably, copying and competition with other male gorillas plays a role as well.
Hi Steve love your books and newsletter. Regarding instinctive behaviour, as a dog owner for decades, my current adorable Standard poodle’s latest friend is a gorgeous 4mo border collie who seems to have had the chasing and herding instinct ever since he has been allowed to play off the leash. With no parent around to teach him, it seems that the herding instinct is extremely instinctive - any thoughts
Yep, herding is a behavior with a strong instinctive component in some breeds.
There’s a famous book by Scott and Fuller which concluded that every category of canine behavior is amenable to selective breeding: pointing, tracking, guarding, etc.
If a behavior or even a desire for a behavior is an instinct then it is by definition not "learned".
Just because a behavior has to be practiced for proficiency doesn't mean its a "learned" behavior. Human infants don't "learn" how to walk, they just get up and do it after a certain amount of time. No one really "learns" how to have sex, they just do it at some point after becoming an adult, etc.
The comparison to Language doesn't work either. Particular languages are learned but the ability to create and speak languages is itself innate. Also, distinct Languages, Dialects and even Accents reflect the nature of the people who created them.
This might just boil down to a semantic debate. If instinctive behaviors are defined as behaviors favored by natural selection, then learning is often part of the installation process for such behaviors.
I’d personally say that practicing for proficiency is learning, as it likely involves the same sort of mechanisms as other forms of learning - e.g., reinforcement learning.
Hi Steve. Watching the little gorilla it seemed to me that there were two factors displayed: 1) the desire/need/urge (!?) to perform the chest thumping and b) the physical competence required. Developing the second factor is something that all complex animals undergo: human infants require practice reliably to locate their thumb in relation to their mouth. But does the desire/need/urge need to be learned?
Hi Simon. As a first approximation, I think it'd be fair to say that, while the behavior is learned, the desire to perform it isn't. Thus, instinctive behaviors are learned in response to unlearned instinctive desires.
It's possible, though, that if we could put a microscope to the neural underpinnings of the desire, we'd find that things aren't quite so tidy. The initial desire could be quite vague and inchoate, and could itself be honed as the behavior starts to develop. In other words, the desire and the behavior may develop in concert with one another.
Logically, though, there must be some unlearned starting point, or the whole process could never get off the ground.
Yes, even as indirect (and subjective) an influence as "liking" a particular arm movement following an initial twitch.
Yes, I came to the comments to say exactly the same thing. The instinct is innate and driven by biology, but competence can only be learned by repeated practice. Presumably, copying and competition with other male gorillas plays a role as well.
Yep, makes sense. See my response to Simon's comment here: https://substack.com/profile/1400583-steve-stewart-williams/note/c-196705662
Hi Steve love your books and newsletter. Regarding instinctive behaviour, as a dog owner for decades, my current adorable Standard poodle’s latest friend is a gorgeous 4mo border collie who seems to have had the chasing and herding instinct ever since he has been allowed to play off the leash. With no parent around to teach him, it seems that the herding instinct is extremely instinctive - any thoughts
Best wishes Paul
Yep, herding is a behavior with a strong instinctive component in some breeds.
There’s a famous book by Scott and Fuller which concluded that every category of canine behavior is amenable to selective breeding: pointing, tracking, guarding, etc.